Special Help for Veterans in Crisis UK

If you or a veteran you know is struggling with mental health and in crisis, this video is for you. We’ll discuss resources available for suicide prevention and support for veterans in the UK. Remember, you are not alone and there is help available.

https://www.facebook.com/veteransunitedagainstsuicide

https://www.youtube.com/@jeffwilliams3042

If you or a loved one is a veteran struggling with thoughts of suicide, this video is for you. We'll provide resources and support for veterans in crisis and share ways to prevent suicide among our nation's heroes. You are not alone and there is help available.

If you are a UK veteran in crisis, there is help available for you. Watch this video to learn about the resources and support available for veterans in the UK who are facing difficult times. Remember, you are not alone and there is support out there for you.

In this video, we're tackling mental health taboos by discussing everyday insights and experiences. From suicide prevention to coping with PTSD, cancer, bereavement, and overall wellbeing, let's break the silence and start important conversations about mental health.

Everyday conversations regarding Mental Health in this show where we talk about these issues that affect everyone and we will also look at veterans and their issues.In this series we will be exploring all aspects of mental health looking at suicide, PTSD, wellbeing, cancer, bereavement, physical and mental wellbeing, care for the carer, self preservation, relationships and any other factors around the subject.

If you would like to come on the show to highlight and issue or just want us to cover and issue then get in touch, you can join in the conversation every week by watching the show and commenting in the comments box, subscribing to the channel doesn't cost a penny and if you click the bell icon you will get notified when we go live also click the like button as it will also help the channel and please share it with your friends.

My contact: timheale55@gmail.com

Pre-Roll Post-Roll short version

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Transcript

Speaker 0 (0s): Welcome to the Tim Heale Podcast. If you have the time, you can not only listen to the episodes, but you can also watch all the shows, and you'll find the links in the description below. thank you.

Boom. I'm in the room. Good evening everybody. Welcome to Everyday Conversations Regarding Mental Health. Now, you are here because there's nothing on the telly, and I'm coming to you live from the old Heale manor and I'm your host, Lord Heale. Now this evening, I've got a guest. Hey, result. 

Boom, I've got a guest on. you know what this show's all about. It's all about mental health, taking the stigma out of it and trying to encourage people to, to talk about mental health. Now I'm still looking at finding guests for the show, so if you want to come on and have a discussion about an aspect of mental wellbeing, then please get in contact and we'll get you onto the show. 

This evening, what we're gonna talk about is we're gonna talk about veteran suicide. Now, the guy I got coming on, In fact, if I bring him in and then you can see and, and then we'll, we'll start a conversation off. How's that? So, boom. Oh, it's me. No, it's not. It's Jeff. Give some more of that. 

Welcome, Jeff. 

Speaker 3 (1m 47s): Welcome. thank you. thank you for the opportunity to, you know, be guest on the show. 

Speaker 0 (1m 52s): Nah, this is an important subject that we're, we're gonna be discussing this evening. Yep. So we're gonna look at veterans, mental wellbeing, mental health. We've got some people in already. Good evening, Keith. Good evening, Catherine. Welcome to the show. Anybody else out there that's, that's there. Just pop in the chat and say hello. Give us a, don't forget to give us a thumbs up and all the rest of it. And Jeff, now if you want to give us a, a little bit of a back brief on where your background, where you're from, and a brief description of what your program's about. 

And then we'll, I'll come back in and then we'll, we'll th it out some more. How's that? 

Speaker 3 (2m 38s): Sounds good to me. 

Speaker 0 (2m 40s): Right. The platform's, yours. 

Speaker 3 (2m 43s): Hey, my name's Jeff Williams. I'm from Veterans United Against Suicide. I'm a former Royal Marine Sergeant Major. Served 22 years for Oaklands veteran. So saw a little bit and have a very good understanding of what a lot of guys and girls are going through at the moment. So much so about seven years ago, we, I think it was being flown under the radar. 

I wasn't really aware of it. One of my friends died of suicide, committ suicide. And it just got, it just was brought to my attention, then forefront of my mind, decided to investigate, have a look, you know, what the actual story was all about. And to my dismay, I found a lot of people were committing suicide on the back of returning from Iraq and from Afghanistan. And before that, the Falklands and before that Northern Ireland. 

So a couple of us, I'm actually the founder on Know, we, I set up a Facebook page initially as an awareness somewhere where people that were struggling, families that were struggling with, living with somebody with a mental health issue could turn to, because At the time it was, it was a massive stigma. Nobody spoke about it, and it was being flown under the radar massively. 

So that's, that's how it all started. It started with, with a friend Diane, that said, I spoke to his wife and she was traumatized by the event and so was his family. And then I just decided, look, something needs to happen. So I stuck my head above the para pit and started raising the subject. Initially. Got a mega hard time about it, You know nobody wanted to speak about it. But obviously seven years down the line now we feel like a lot of the doors have been kicked open. 

Speaker 0 (4m 57s): So all started off with, with a mate. And that's quite often how do these things, these start, I mean, I, I, I've had my best mate back in 2005. It was a 10th, 11th of November, 2005. My best mate took his own life, And. that was devastating the following year, on the 10th of November, 2006, my wife died of cancer. 

So double whammy in a year. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty tough to deal with at the time. Yep. But we get through it. So lots and lots of veterans at the moment are going through that, that those dark times. 

Speaker 3 (5m 47s): Yes, yes. 

Speaker 0 (5m 49s): And the government, bless 'em, aren't doing anything to really, there's, there's nothing out there that the government are doing to make anything any easier, especially with the, with the cloud that's hanging over us all at the moment. Yep. They're now going after five SAS guys that are operating in Syria. 

Speaker 3 (6m 14s): Yeah. 

Speaker 0 (6m 16s): What's that about for taking out terrorists? Yeah. It won't be long before they start chasing us for, for actions that we did in Afghanistan and Iraq. I mean, they've already a go guys in Iraq. That's 

Speaker 3 (6m 31s): So yeah. That's something already. 

Speaker 0 (6m 34s): Yeah. So. yeah. I mean, what do the government think they're doing? And then they wonder why they've got a, a problem with recruiting. 

Speaker 3 (6m 44s): Yeah. They, they are destroying the fabric of the Veterans community. you know, I talk to veterans on a daily basis and there's a lot of 'em hanging on with their fingertips and And, you know, most of 'em are very intelligent people and they don't need to be listening to a lot of bullshit. All promises and boasts that are never coming out to Ian. you know, they're really down in the mouth. And as you said, You know, it's, it's not easy out there at the moment for anybody, nevermind veterans who have come back Yeah. 

Damage from war. And again, you know, I can tell you a hundred stories about veterans that are literally, and, and of course it's the ripple effect out to the families as well. Yeah. I lived with a, with somebody that's really struggling You know some of the stories are absolutely horrendous. Now, I just wanna put you in a quick scenario because this is actual factual, you know, not, not the bullshit that we normally have to listen to this, this is the facts. So many of our guys and In fact, it's in the thousands, came back from Afghanistan, traumatized the government's in denial. 

There's no, there's no plan B to look at these people who have been in conflict, probably the most intense conflict since the second World War, with the amount of injuries that we sustained and the amount of people that have life changing injuries to bring them back into and then bring them back from war. Some of them actually were, had PTSD and were sent back out again because the shortage of numbers And, that in itself is a travesty, And, you know, and were wondering why people are poorly. But they, they came back, they were encouraged to reach out when they reached out. 

They were removed from the sanctuary of the military where, you know, some of these guys have been in since they were 18. Yeah. They didn't know anything else in their adult life, really. And then all of a sudden they, they're removed from the military family sent home. Now you put yourself in that situation, right? You, you've served, let's say six years. You come back, you are having nightmares, you're feeling down And, you know, all, all the symptoms of PTSD and whatever. 

You report it. And before you know where you are, you've been marched out the door, then you've gotta put your life back on track. Just simple things like relocating your family, finding a job, finding a school for the kids, and all the rest of it that goes on with it. There's a lot of stuff in there that is, you know, as, as one thing is, is is trouble in your head. Yeah. It's troublesome. If you've got 10 things that you've got a sort out and put your life back on track again and start all over again. 

And even just, you know, even just getting back into civilian life is so, so difficult for these lads. And a lot of 'em turn to drink, a lot of 'em turn to drugs and a lot of them end up in prison. And then obviously there's the ones that just say enough's enough. And the sad thing about it, these are good people. Yeah. And when, when I speak to the families, they'd say he felt worthless. 

She felt worthless. She felt I was a hindrance to the family, to to, to them. They would be better off without me. Statements like that. It's, it's horrible. And then you've got the government saying it You know it's on par with the civilian population. Yeah. You've got Johnny Mercer throw his smoke screens over all over the place. I'm wondering why people are now bitter un twisted about it. 

And we've lost people because there was a lack of support. You can't go to war for 20 years and not have a plan to sort the mental health tsunami that hits you when you return. 

Speaker 0 (10m 53s): Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (10m 54s): And there was nothing, the only plan they had was hand it over to the overstretched NHS who were not equipped to do it, And that, and because of the trauma these guys had seen, most of them were being sent away because it was too difficult to deal with complex PTSD. 

Speaker 0 (11m 13s): Oh, I had exactly the same. Yeah. For, for me, I mean, I, I, I did seven operational tours in 10 years. I did two tours of Kosovo and I saw some pretty nasty stuff in Kosovo. Mm. Then I did Macedonia, nine 11 happened, then five months later I'm in Kabul. Then I did a, an Iraq tour in 2004. And then I did two further tours of Afghanistan in Helmand. I came back in 2009. 

I I got a job as a welfare officer and I did that for eight years. Finally left the military in 2018, April, 2018. Yeah. And it was, it was just two years later. In fact, it was just after we came outta lockdown, I was struggling a little bit. Went to see the quack. He put us in touch with. First thing he wanted to do was put me on antidepressant antidepressants. Well, I, I was having none of that. 

So he put us onto this group called I Talk, which is a local mental health team down here in, in, in the gospel area. I had six sessions with he, with them. I had two different psychologists. They didn't understand the stuff that I'd seen, what I'd been through. They for, for, for, for me particularly. They weren't able to help. 

No, no. The way I got through it, I, I I, I got in touch with a couple of mates that I'd been through it with. We had a chat about it, got it all sorted out, put it back into its box and it's back there dealt with. I'm okay. But I had some dark thoughts in that time. So I can empathize with what guys go through. It's, it's, it's a really challenging time for, for guys. 

And it, lots of us, it doesn't hit until we are out of, out of it. We, we've, we've left the left the fold. We're out in series three on our own. For me, I wasn't in a fit state to work anyway. I was broken underneath this gorgeous exterior. There's an Absolute train wreck going on. Yeah. But so, so I retired at 60 and every day. And then we, and then they, they they inflicted this lockdown on us. 

And I think that was a catalyst that set me off because I didn't have enough to do. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and when you've got too much time on your hands, you start reflecting on stuff, you start having those nightmares and, and all the stuff starts surfacing because you, you, you're not busy enough. Yeah. Yeah. But what you are saying is that, that, that guys do feel that they, that they're, they've been let down by the system. 

They've been let down by quite often the units once, once, once the, once you're out, the rugs pull from under you. They haven't got the time to be able to look after the guys. Now there are over 2000 military charities out there, or charities set up for military people. What I will say is that there is always somebody out there to help. 

There is definitely, there's somebody there. And sometimes all it takes is a word, but the right person that's got the time just to listen. And I think that's really, really important. If you are feeling alone, you're feeling down. There's always somebody to reach out for and is always the military family that will step up and and assist and help you. Yeah. And I think that's, that's something that guys tend to lose because, because they, they, they're out of it. 

They, they, they don't want to be a burden. They don't want to, to sort of go back into, to, to contacting people. They, they seem to think it's a bit of weakness that Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (15m 37s): That they're 

Speaker 0 (15m 37s): Having 

Speaker 3 (15m 37s): Trouble, pride gets in the way. Gets in the way. so that, that's why I hear more than anything else. you know, they, I'm, 

Speaker 0 (15m 44s): And that's, that's the thing 

Speaker 3 (15m 46s): About reaching out. 

Speaker 0 (15m 48s): Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (15m 49s): But pride gets in the way. I say to the guys, look shelf that, you know, there's no one judging you. Yeah. What we're trying to do is, well, you know, you're just shoulders to lean on somewhere to just get, get your, you know, get yourself stabilized again and then, and then there's plenty of time to move on and, and do the things that you need to do to, you know, to get the therapeutics required. Because a lot of, a lot of these situations as well occur because of just other, other, other events happening in the life to be Yeah. 

you know, financial issues. It can, the biggest one, if, if I'm brutally honest, I come across is relationship breakdowns. 

Speaker 0 (16m 29s): Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (16m 31s): That, that's probably probably the, probably the, if if you listed everything, I think that would be at the top. 

Speaker 0 (16m 37s): And I got finance. And there's a reason for that. And I think because when you're in the military, if you've been married in the military for any length of time, you've always been away. You, you've, you've been away on exercises, you've been away on this, you've been underway, And that you come back and you're there 24 7 and, and you're not used to having that closer relationship with your partner. And I think that then it is like a two, two edged sword. 

I mean, you got on her nerves, she gets on your nerves. You're not used to being together all the time. 

Speaker 3 (17m 18s): Yeah. 

Speaker 0 (17m 19s): Because you've, you've, you've had that lifestyle where you've gone away. You've, you've been away with your mates and all the rest of it. And, and then you come back and you haven't got that going away aspect to your life. And Well, 

Speaker 3 (17m 33s): I can remember when I was come, I can remember when I was come back to him. And, you know what, you know, there's a wife saying you, you actually get in their way. You break there because they've had to survive while you're being away. They've got a routine, they've got a structure to their life. And otherwise you come in and go get Coronation Street off the tell No, I wanna watch the football. you know, and they all look at you as horror. Yeah. We always watch Coronation Street and, and, and all that. I'll get all that. you know. And I don't think the military do enough to, well, I, sorry, I don't knock the military because I know they've got a job to do. 

Yeah. But they don't do enough to brief the ladies and the gentleman sometimes to what expect to what what to expect when a guy comes back traumatized. Yeah. And they see a massive difference in you. you know, they look at you and you look, you know, you look drained. You, you, you're short tempered. You know you're irritable. You don't wanna be around people. And all the classic You know classic situations. 

All the signs are there. Yeah. They're all there. But, and you don't see it in yourself. No. Well, you can't, you know, and, and you are denial yourself. And In fact, I got, when I, I struggled with PTSD or I, I was, I was struggling very badly after the SI didn't even know it. I thought it was normal. And I thought that's what, that's how everybody felt. Yeah. It was only as I got older and my resilience drained down, I left the bravado of the Royal Marines and the family, and all of a sudden I was on my own. 

And I was surrounded by people, especially in the civilian workplace who just did not get it. They did not understand. They didn't, they didn't accept it. you know, as far as they were concerned. You had these big roughy, ty commando, you've come into their work and all they want to talk about is, well, but you've got some war stories, mate. Well actually don't wanna talk about it. And if you go back, I can remember my granddad and everybody used to say, oh, he's very quiet. 

I I know why he was quiet now. 'cause he fought the second World War. Yeah. And he saw traumatic things and he didn't wanna burden the family with those nightmares that he was having all the time. So his best way of dealing with it was to shut up and not say nothing. And that's why people go quiet, you know? And, and withdrawn and people irritate you. And, and, and like I said to you, the saddest thing of all is people feel betrayed. 

Yeah. That's the saddest thing. Because they need a lifeboat, a life belt to, to hold on to. Yeah. We would be saving people. Well, we save people every single day that, that the, the network And that And, you know, the Veterans network, where, like you said, quite correctly, they're the first person there. Yeah. you know, I put a shout out for a para trooper yesterday and within an hour there was somebody knock on his door to check on him. And what we do, what we we do in veteran genetic against suicide is we've got a system called the Buddy Check where you check on your mate's regular. 

Speaker 0 (20m 56s): Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (20m 57s): So, you know, so and so's struggling. You keep in contact with him. You've only got, look, if everybody looks after four or five people, just a quick phone call to check, they're okay. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna get the people to say I'm fine when they're not. 

Speaker 0 (21m 11s): Yeah. I mean that's, that's, that's the, the there's there's two questions you asked there. Yeah. The first question is, are you all right mate? Yeah. And I said, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. You followed that up with no, are you really? All right. You don't see yourself And that hopefully will open that, that that the crack in the door So, you can get your foot in there and then you can, you can expand on that conversation and hopefully they'll open up and all it takes is use these, use your ears twice as much as your K Cole And that and just listen to somebody. 

And sometimes that is all it takes to get somebody outta that dark spot that red up, they find out that they're not the only one that's going through that sort of shit. 

Speaker 3 (22m 4s): No. 

Speaker 0 (22m 5s): There's so many, so many other guys that are going through exactly the same thing that have come through the same stuff that then they feel a little bit better about themselves. True. I think that's absolutely really, really important. And I think the work that you are doing is putting guys in touch with guys just to do the buddy buddy check. Yeah. And that's a really important thing. So how does, how do you go about setting that up in the first place? 

How do you go about putting guys in touch with other guys? 

Speaker 3 (22m 40s): Well, because it's commonplace now. Well, sorry, first and foremost, it's down to doing what you say it is. Having the communication skills to be able to get it out there. Like you just said, it's not a weakness. We're here to help. Just give us a shout if there's a problem. Or if you're a family member and you think he's struggling. It's very difficult to say that though, when a person, you, you can't get somebody to reach out if they don't wanna reach out. So the family sometimes can see it, but they, they're in denial and they won't happen that that can create a problem. 

But, you know, especially the younger lads who have got young children, they are a motivation to carry on. The wife wants them to carry on. I mean, they even had this unbelievable poem yesterday that a wife wrote to a husband who was in a dark place telling him how much she loved him And, that she was waiting for him. And it, you know, as long as you come, it brings us here into your eye as a realization that you know, you are hurting other people. 

And I think you've got a duty to do something about it. Not to say I, I'm not judging because some people, you know, we always say it's 10% you'll never save because there's no signs. Nobody can see it. It just happens. Yeah. Then you've got the people that reach out and there's warning signs going off all over the side. And you've gotta you've gotta spot them. But Todd, to answer your question, what we do is we identify those people. We put it to them that we are here to help. 

We're not here to judge. you know, we are a non, well, we're not even a nonprofit. We are just a Facebook page. None of us get paid. We're all veterans or, or mothers of veterans. And we were, we were there and we were signpost to you to somebody that will deal with your situation immediately. 'cause that's the biggest problem. All the, all the established charities, they're too long-winded. And they're not immediate action. And the problem is, we need to react When a bloke's made his mind up, we need to be honest, his case straight away. 

Speaker 0 (24m 57s): Absolutely. But, 

Speaker 3 (24m 58s): You know, you leave it a die, you leave it two days and they're gone. It, it, you know, I love to say So. it, it is about not knowing, knowing the community, pulling out good stories. Like this video that we doing now, this show Yeah. It, you know, it reaches people and they go the talking sense. I know exactly where they're coming from. And then they're, and then you tell them that you've done this, you've done that. It's not a matter of boasting, it's, it's, it's giving the people the opportunities to see that the system works. 

Yeah. And that people are coming out the other end. And that's what we've, we focused on is, is getting to the, to the middle ground people who probably would go if somebody didn't intervene, talk to them. you know, like you said, talk about old times in the military. Yeah. Go for, go for one of these fantastic breakfast, breakfast clubs that are setting up all over the UK. It's a great way to meet the guys again and be sort of semi immersed into that environment that we all loved. 

Speaker 0 (26m 3s): I mean, we're, we are really lucky. We are really blessed as a, as a veteran community. We, we, we've got several breakfast clubs that the Armed forces and Veterans spread folks clubs are a great place to go and beat guys. We've got one here on Saturday at Hornet Services Sailing Club. And we've just taken it over from the RNA club and already I've got, last week we had 45 on the books. 

45 turned up This week. We've already got 40 said they're coming. And 

Speaker 3 (26m 41s): Amazing. 

Speaker 0 (26m 43s): It's, it, I mean, it's, it's just tremendous. And there's lots of banter around, there's lots of people meeting each other. Lots of people know each other anyway, from the other breakfast clubs. Yeah. There's another breakfast club over in Portsmouth at the sovereigns every other week from us. We are on the second and fourth and the fifth Saturday of the month. If there's five Saturdays in the month. And it's a great place to meet. We're blessed with another group called Voss, which is Veterans Outreach Support. 

Yeah. And they have lots of different events on, they have a regular bun, but buddies and banter. There's another group that's called Buns and Banter. They'll meets once a month and it's veterans and it's just keeping in touch with the community. And if people, if if people laugh, feeling a bit out of themselves not right, then there's always somebody there that will pick up on and, and say you're okay. 

And Yeah. And, and point 'em in the right direction. Absolutely. That remember the old mash series and the theme two to mash And the thing too goes, Sue, is suicide is painless. 

Speaker 3 (28m 0s): Painless. 

Speaker 0 (28m 1s): Well, suicide isn't painless. 

Speaker 3 (28m 4s): No. 

Speaker 0 (28m 5s): A a it hurts if you try it on and you get it wrong. You've got pain to live with. But it's the people you're leaving behind. The pain that they go through the, the the what they feel. And I, I know a case where a dad took his own life and his, his, his younger son was I think about seven at the time. And it wasn't till he was 18 that it came out that he thought it was his fault. 

That his dad had taken his own life and he'd lived without trauma. Yeah. From the age of seven. 

Speaker 3 (28m 46s): So, well, apparently there are, there are some statistics out there that suggest that if you are parent committed suicide, you are very high risk yourself. Yeah. There's been, there's been a survey on that. I can give you another story, which is You know horrendous. But a little girl found her dad hanging in the house, traumatized by that for the rest of her life. You know. And the phone, you know, I speak to the mom about it and she said, I just dunno what to do with her. She's, you know, she's just not the same person anymore. 

Dad's not there to support her. And she said exactly that. She said, did daddy die? 'cause I was a naughty girl. 

Speaker 0 (29m 25s): Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (29m 26s): You know, and 

Speaker 0 (29m 26s): That's, that's the sort of trauma that they, that that you leave behind. 

Speaker 3 (29m 30s): Definitely. 

Speaker 0 (29m 33s): And, and it, and it goes on for decades. 

Speaker 3 (29m 37s): Absolutely. you know, 

Speaker 0 (29m 39s): So, so sad. 

Speaker 3 (29m 40s): There's no stigma, but there is stigma in your own mind. Yeah. you know, oh, why did your dad, well where's your daddy? Oh, hes, you know, he's killed himself. You know it. The pressure we put the people that le are left behind. But, you know, the pressure we put them under is unbelievable. But, you know, I think one thing that's, well there's a couple of things that have irritated me and my work over the last seven years, and I'm just, I'm, I'm just brutally truthful about it. One was the government's denial of the numbers. 

I've got the numbers in front of me. Now let, lemme just explain about these numbers. 'cause they're always challenged, but they're as realistic as we can get it as a community. Yeah. Because we approached George, a bloke called Jim Wild used to work with me. And he's the, he, he used to, he used to keep the database, what he still does. If anybody ever wants to know any information on up to date figures, Jim wa the guy to, to speak to. But me and Jim started to raise the figures because we approached the government and said, can we have the statistics of veteran suicide? 

Because it was on the back of a statement where the government said that, that the numbers of suicides in the military were on par with a civilian population. Now I couldn't believe that because at that stage we'd lost 10 in, in a, in just over six weeks. 10, 10 troops were killed. Yeah. Killed themselves. Now the, I went back to the minister and I said to him, excuse me, you are not horrified that 10 veterans have committed suicide in next to no time whatsoever in six weeks. 

I said, if six, if, if 10 policemen committed suicide or 10 ambulance workers or 10 HNHS or even 10 politicians, it would be all over the news and everybody would be screaming about it. But you are, you are saying it's not happening. Can you tell many veterans died? This was in 2017. He said, no, can, can't tell you that. I said, why? 'cause we don't record veteran suicide. Well, how can you possibly have a benchmark figure when you haven't, you know, a start line And I was, and that's what started for us. 

And we've been recording the figures ever since. Now they, they, they challenge those figures and say they can't be right because the coroners haven't said that that was suicide. And our argument to that is, if it's one of your mates that you served with and one of your mates phones up and says, have you heard about Steve? What's happened? He hung himself last night through PTSD. Why should we have to wait for two or three years for it to go through a process, through a coroner to then turn around and say exactly that. 

Yeah. So you've got two or three years for the figures. All, all hidden, hidden co at the moment. 

Speaker 0 (32m 44s): What, what they've done now is, I think since 2020, they've, the coroner's courts have now started recording that. It's a, a veteran or a, a serving personnel that have taken their own lives. So now they're seeing the figures, the actual figures of veterans that are taking their own lives. And it's, it's scaring them. 

Speaker 3 (33m 13s): Well, lemme give you some figures because that's, you know, I wanted to get, I wanted, I want it to get out there and I want TVs to look at this and go, I'm not aware of that. And, and ask your mps why is this allowed to happen? And we don't know about it. The BBC won't, won't discuss it with us and nor nor will ICV or Sky. But that to me, like I said, we've, we've painstakingly, you know, got this information together. 

Volunteers have done this, and they're telling me it's too difficult to do. in the first year that we did it in 2017, excuse me one minute. We, we, we started part through the year back end of the year and there was 14, 14, 14 families broken, devastated, probably never ever gonna get over it. 2018, I'm not gonna put you on the spot here, Tim, what'd you think the number was for 2018? 

Bear on it was 14 a year before 

Speaker 0 (34m 18s): Is somewhere around about 70, I think 

Speaker 3 (34m 21s): 89. 

Speaker 0 (34m 24s): Not 

Speaker 3 (34m 24s): Far. Around 89. We've got now we've got names, we've got numbers, we've got contact details, we've got confirmation, or Jim has, anyway, we used to do it together, but I'll just passing the information now. But there were 61 vets out of that and there were 16 military guys serving. Now the thing is they've got those figures, they know they're serving, they still don't know all the veterans. And that's the truth. Now that the year after was 89 that year. 

Next year was 81, 90 the year after 80, the year after that. 58 last year. Sorry, the year before 43, the year after that. And it's been, it's been six this year so far. I all them, it's over 300 people. That's almost a unit. That's two companies of men. Yeah. And women. Some of them are ladies And, that that's a live, worked outta all this. 

Is that the, the ratio over that period of time, over seven years, there's four veterans dying to every one serving. So if you are using the, if you are using a serving as a benchmark for, for military suicide figures, you're four times out. That's a fact. 

Speaker 0 (35m 51s): Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (35m 51s): You know, and I can't get that message to anybody that'll champion it. All we get is, oh, we've, we've, we've done a survey through a university. Oh, have you? And how, how much did that cost? A million. Yeah. Okay. And and how did you get and Oh, what what we did was we, we, we gave them every single serving person's name, a number. And if they've died, then we, we tick them off and say, oh, that's one suicide. It doesn't work like that. No, it ain't been recorded. 

It haven't been recorded. 

Speaker 0 (36m 23s): And they paid him a million pound for that. 

Speaker 3 (36m 25s): A mil over a million pound Johnny Mercer. He wanted something that he could lean back on and go, I've got all I can. And it's not as bad as these guys are making out. Do you know what, I served 22 years. I don't remember one suicide in that time. I don't know anybody now who I talk to who doesn't know a brother or a sister in the military terms. Yeah. That died of suicide. They all know somebody. So how can you, you know, what, what dynamics changed in that period of time for that, for it to, to, you know what it's, Afghanistan has got a lot to do with it. 

Speaker 0 (37m 3s): Yeah. I mean, definitely going back to the Falklands in 82. Yeah. There's still Veterans now being identified with PTSD. Okay. There's been an awful lot of Falklands veterans that have taken their life in that interim period. And more often than not, it's, it's, and and, and what we, what we were seeing from the Falklands coming forward with Northern Ireland. And then we got into the nineties into the Balkans, and then we got the first Gulf War and then the Balkans. 

And then in the, in the twenties we, we've got Afghan and Iraq kicking off and, and we were in, we were in Afghanistan best part of 20 years when we finally thought it all fell to pieces and we pulled out. 

Speaker 3 (37m 56s): And that's the key. We 

Speaker 0 (37m 57s): Sat on top of the powder can 

Speaker 3 (37m 60s): Yeah. That's the key point as well. The way we pulled out of Afghanistan. There's a lot of guys struggling with that. They lost friends and family out there gaining a couple of yards of ground. Got the bloody first World war trench warfare. They got a, they got a bit of ground. We took it over and now we had the all back to it's not result in the 

Speaker 0 (38m 22s): We when, when that, when all collapsed. I mean I I, I've got three of the interpreters that work for me were left behind. Fortunately we've managed to get 'em out and they're back here now. And they're, they're fairly, fairly much settled now. But they, they've got left behind and they were actively being sought by the Taliban. Another one of the guys that worked for me was killed by the Taliban. Didn't manage to get out. 

And it's, it's just the way that it happened and it didn't need to happen. We could have still been there, still supporting the Afghan national army, the, the national police. And it's all down to Biden pulling the rug out. They only had, the Yanks only had 12, 1200 or 2000 troops in there anyway. And if the other NATO allies had stumped up and put a few more troops in there, it didn't need to go the way it did. 

Yeah. And, and I think that, that for me, I was really, really angry. I'm still angry over it. Yeah. Having spent, I mean I spent 18 months in, in Afghanistan and I saw the change there and I saw the change for better. But it, it just grips that it's, it's gone the way it has. And, and I, I really feel sorry for, for the young girls that are out there that had 10, 15 years of going to school Yeah, yeah. 

Of being educated and now they've got nothing. They're not even allowed to leave the house now. It's just 

Speaker 3 (40m 10s): Horrendous. 

Speaker 0 (40m 10s): Beggars belief really does. And, and And, that sort of thing does make people really, really angry. Yeah. And that, that can bring on some real nightmares. 

Speaker 3 (40m 24s): Have 

Speaker 0 (40m 26s): Of known that was people out there You 

Speaker 3 (40m 28s): Know thing. Faults, you know, one thing about the faults, when we got back from it, it was a sense of achievement 'cause a sense of national pride. Yeah. Remember coming back on the, on the Canberra And, you know, being coming into Pompe, you know, loads of boats and the families were there and yeah, we come back, we expected to just be like coming back from exercise. You got on the coach and go back. Mm. It was thousands of people there. My family were there. It was, it was amazing. you know what, what did the Afghanistan guys get? 

Nothing. Get back. Go and leave for two weeks and decompress. Yeah. Get yourself, you know, just have a, have a, have a ball that doesn't solve anything. In fact, anything. It make it worse. 

Speaker 0 (41m 9s): Well, on all the operational tours I ever did, I never went through decompression. I never went through Cypress on decompression for one reason or another. I, I, I came straight back, straight back to Blighty, the first, first couple because I was a reserve. I was just taken straight up to chill. Well de Moed clear off. Then I went on to full-time reserve service and it was a bit different. 

But I still missed out going through Cypress doing the decompression, particularly after the last two Afghan tours. Sure. I ended up one of them, I came back on a, one of the repatriation flights and the other one, our team boss brought us all back together in one it and, and the flight we were on just happened to go straight back to Briars rather than via Cyprus. So we missed out. 

I suppose that's got part to do with, with some of the issues that I've had. Dunno. But I mean I saw a lot, lots of stuff going on out there. I mean my last tour particularly in 2008, nine, I, I was all over Helmond. I, I spent six months flying around installing radio in the boxes. So I was in Kajaki And, I was in Garma Air. And I was in Sangin. 

So I gotta see quite a lot of what was going on. And I was in different patrol bases and different fobs throughout that time. So I saw a lot of, I wasn't actually involved with the action but I was seeing the guys going in and out. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of lots of guys coming back in bits. 

Speaker 3 (43m 2s): Well, well I think, you know, the guys I've spoken to, which is numerous to be honest, you know, it was a lottery every time they went out they used to joke about who was gonna get blown up this time. you know, if you got back it was like, whoa, crack that one. you know, people having children before they deployed in case they didn't come back and stuff like this. I mean to have that carry that around in your head, you know, at some stage, you know, tough. You think you are, it's gonna seem to the top You know. 

I remember my dad saying to me, You know I came back from the, and he went, you've changed. I didn't think, I didn't think I'd changed And. I was quite offended. I thought, no I haven't changed. He said, you have, you're more serious. You're not, it does change 

Speaker 0 (43m 47s): My 

Speaker 3 (43m 47s): Happy dog. Look. His, he said I was horrified that he, he felt like that And that You know the, the trauma I must have put him under. But You know, like you said, I mean there was no decompression in them days. We, no, we actually went on leave. I was, 

Speaker 0 (44m 4s): Well I, there was two types of guys that that came back from the Falklands. There was the, i I think it was predominantly powers that they flew back into Bri almost straight from the Falklands straight in. And then you had the, the rest of the guys came back on the ships. The guys that came back on the ships have suffered less with PTSD because they had that sort of two or three weeks on the ships going back cut of can rule a day. 

The guys that flown straight back didn't get that decompression as such. And I think the predominance is that those guys have suffered more with PTSD than the guys on the ships. And I think that's, that's where they've, they've come to it. Yeah. Latter day. The Marines have done it really well for, for a long time working on trim, which is a trauma incident management. Yeah. And it's only the Army picked up on the last few years with Doey that instigated it for the army. 

That the army started to do it. When, when you're involved in a, in an incident, a traumatic incident, you got the trim team comes in sort of 72 hours after the incident, identifies who is involved and all the rest of it. Whether a direct or indirect who needs a one-to-one who needs a, a group who, who needs an overall brief and then they go back in the, the 30 day reassess everybody again. And, and then any time somebody that's not right and they can get sign signposted onto professionals And, then he go back in the the three month point and again reassess to make sure everybody's okay. 

The problem comes of course if you've got guys in, in patrol bases that are going out multiples contacts day in, day out, how do you trim those guys as you're going through? Not comfortable, difficult. Yeah. Yeah. But I think the trim process does help a lot with, with staving off some of the problems. 'cause it's not unusual You know Tom Jones bit. 

It's not unusual to have those sort of nightmares and, and what's name in the early days. And if you, you can instill that into the guise that it's perfectly normal, those thoughts that they have, then they able to deal with it a lot better. So, you as a boot neck must have seen that. 

Speaker 3 (46m 47s): Yeah, definitely. Like I say, I mean I've always, I always have be careful that I don't come across as biased. 'cause obviously You know there's lots of rivalries amongst the regiments in the units and whatever. But in my seven years of doing this, especially I have seen the Corps is a front runner in the, the the Royal Marine Charity especially Yeah. Are very focused on mental health issues with the troops. 

you know, they, they're all over it. Yeah. And I think that helps with the numbers. Sadly when you look at the fingers, I mean the Army's been absolutely smashed to pieces, but there was more, you know, more Army guys out there. Yeah. Raf not so much the Navy, not so much. But the Army have, have taken the bulk of the, of the losses. But the court, I think a lot of the charities, the military charities, a lot of the units, especially the Army, have looked at the Royal Marines way of, they've dealt with it. 

And like you said, they've brought that into their game And that will, you know, in time that will help. Yeah. It's not gonna help the people that are struggling out. No, no. 

Speaker 0 (48m 3s): I It's too late for that. It is, it is too late for the trim. But I mean IIII did three deployments with 3 3, 3 Commando Brigade, And, you know, I mean I, I, they they took us under the wing and looked after us and, and from my point of view, that was good. I also did a deployment with a Paris. I'm glad didn didn't do any anymore with them. To be honest. 

Speaker 3 (48m 31s): I'm not saying nothing, not guilty, your Honor. 

Speaker 0 (48m 37s): So Jeff, how do, how do people get a hold of you on this? What's the best way of contacting you to, to have a chat? 

Speaker 3 (48m 45s): Well, there's two things. I mean, you know, co sort me out on Facebook, it's Jeff with A-J-J-W-F Williams. I'm the good looking guy in a raw marine Veterans attire or Veterans United Against Suicide Facebook page. Either of those Facebook pages put a comment in there. You want somebody to come and speak to you And that somebody will be there instantly. Yeah. 

Like I say, we do publicize stuff, but we don't never use people's names. It'll just be and raw Marine in trouble in Portsmouth. And then the guys in Portsmouth, they've got, I'll look at that. They'll contact me or one of the team. I normally coordinate it with a lady called Jules. And then we all get somebody down to them if that's what's required. Or a phone call just to stabilize the ship and understand exactly where we are. And then we will signpost them into the direction of people who are professionals qualified to take it any further. 

Point them point out to them what's available to them. All the government type stuff of courage. Yeah. That type of thing. Advise them to You know, be open about it. First thing you need to do is speak to your doctor, get it on your system that you are struggling. Say nobody, you know, your medical records are secure. And then that opens the doors to other treatment. 

Like I say, there's, there's loads of walk in the wound wound. It help 

Speaker 0 (50m 24s): Me on, on the doctor thing. It's important when you register, when you come out, you register with a doctor to inform 'em that you are a veteran And that gets flagged onto your medical records. Because, because there's so much more, because of the armed forces covenant. You are, you're not treated any different, but you are given a, a bit more priority when it comes to, to particularly the mental health side of it. 

And courage. I can I, and I know they, they will put you in touch with the right people. Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (51m 2s): Can I say that? Think that's important. That is a little bit, I don't wanna be negative, I just wanna be realistic. It's a bit of a postcode lottery. Portsmouth is particularly good. Yeah. you know, In fact, it's very good. There are other places where veterans come to me and say it's a waste of time. I've been on surgery, they've never even, they don't even know anything about anything about signing up and being a veteran. And like you say, they did say that you would, you would get priority treatment. Clearly it's difficult to manage and it's difficult for the practices to manage that, but that's not strictly true across the board. 

It's, it's an area of improvement that could Yeah. Could what needs to happen needs to be across the board, across the whole of the UK where, you know, you get your records updated with veterans because then they, you know, like I say, these doors open to up courage. Yeah. Up fortitude and all the rest of 'em. Combat stress, 

Speaker 0 (52m 0s): In fact, Martin's on tonight and Martin Dive in. He's, he works for Op Courage over in Little Hampton Chichester to that area. Yeah. And he was on the show and he explained all about that. So I'll link that episode down in below. I'll, I'll also include your contact details in the description as well. So no problem. 

Speaker 3 (52m 27s): Anybody that wants to 

Speaker 0 (52m 28s): Get of anybody, 

Speaker 3 (52m 28s): Any, anytime, reach out Jeff 

Speaker 0 (52m 30s): Or 

Speaker 3 (52m 30s): Martin. That's my message. You know we're, we're in it together. You know there's no point hanging on expecting some miracle from the government. It's not gonna happen. We need to deal with ourselves and then hopefully in the next generation that come through will benefit from the hard work and and diligence that we're putting in to raise this subject. So, you know, we, we are just saying it as it is. It's, it's our reality and it's our truth. Our people are struggling. 

We want people to be aware of that. And especially the media, stop covering it up, call it what it is and let's get it dealt with. 

Speaker 0 (53m 12s): Absolutely. Well Jeff, that has been fascinating little chat and I wish you every success. thank you. And if there's any veteran out there that, that is feeling in adult place, please, please reach out. There is, there is help there. 

Speaker 3 (53m 33s): Definitely. There's some good people out there looking flying wingman for you top cover. Yeah. And they will, they will support you while you get yourself sorted out. 

Speaker 0 (53m 44s): Absolutely. Well, thanks Jeff. 

Speaker 3 (53m 47s): Yes sir. Yes sir. 

Speaker 0 (53m 53s): Well, what a fascinating chat we've had this evening. If you are a veteran, couple of things. Ensure that you, when you register with your doctor or you are already registered with a doctor, let them know that you are a veteran. There's no stigma involved in it. It, it, it opens more doors, it gives you better support. So that's a key. If you are in a dark place, think before you do anything daft, reach out. 

There is always somebody there, always somebody that'll reach out and help. So thanks very much guys. Until next week then when I hopefully have another guest on another fascinating chat. in the meantime, stay safe and reach out to veterans groups. They're there And that they're happy to help. The Armed Forces Breakfast Armed Forces and Veterans Breakfast Clubs. 

They're all over the country. Just popping that. Find the nearest one to you. Go along and have a chat with the guys and have a decent breakfast as while you're at it. There are loads of veterans charities just there to help and there's no stigma involved in mental wellbeing. Just remember that. So until next week, TTFN Tatar for now, 

Welcome to the Tim Heale podcast. If you have the time, you cannot only listen to the episodes, but you can also watch all the shows and you'll find the links in the description below. thank you.